Blogger Details The Building of Their New Home, Shortly After, Their Tile Decks Leak-See the Pics

I was doing a Google on tile decks...and found this Blog on a homeowners building their house and their tile deck leak issues.

The first set of pics show the house being framed/flashed. Problems are already apparent, such as the floor of the deck being almost the same height as the floor of the house...then tile is going on. The result will be tile higher than the floor, water trapped in thresholds...click here to see the start of the job

Here is an actual statement by the owner on the cause of their deck problems...
"The 3rd wettest January on record helped to underscore the ongoing problems we had with water leaking into the great room. The roof over this area is actually the roof deck. The roof deck is surrounded by a stucco parapet and the theory for the cause of our water problems is that when the tile was grouted, the weep screed in the J-metal at the lower edge of the stucco got plugged. This caused water to back up into the stucco and seep through the wooden parapet structure (natural stucco is not waterproof). Any way, to fix it involved tearing out stucco and tile and re-flashing, re-sealing and putting everything back. 3/1/2005 - "


"One wouldn't think that in the desert, leaking water would be a big problem--and most of the time it isn't. On those infrequent occasions, though, it can really be a mess. Our major leaking problems come from two areas. The first, and most serious, is water leaking from the roof deck. Current theory is that water is not exiting the stucco on the parapet through its normal path out of the bottom of J-metal that defines the lower limits of the stucco. This area has been blocked by tile grout. The other leaking is coming from the door thresholds. These were originally installed below the level of the exterior tile. Not a good idea. They were replaced with a higher version, but the adjoining deck tile was not replaced. This left a gap, and again, more water."


See the horror show pics of water leaking in everywhere. Click here


 See the horror show pics of the house being torn apart to remove wet insulation, drywall etc. Click here

See the horror show pics of the deck being torn apart to fix the stucco and deck. Click here

Moral of the Story-Do it right once or pay the consequences...

From John Bridge Tile Forums-Schluter System Blamed In Tile Deck Failure, Installer Needs to Blame Himself

John Bridge doesn't want me on their forums, probably because I say most Tile Installers can't waterproof properly...this post and the thread following it pretty much proves it. Again.

Read the thread using this link...John Bridge Forums

There's many an opinion thrown around on the 7 pages of threads from the original posts, but in my opinion, the tile installer just plain F'd up...no edge flashings, no control joints, admits deck has flex in it, the list goes on...

Moral of the Story Get a tile guy to tile, get a waterproofer to waterproof. I would not have touched this deck until it met all standards set by APA, TCNA and Schluter...

Deck Expert Not Welcome at John Bridge Forums-Tile Setters Take Offense That I Said Most Can't Waterproof Decks For Tile, Then One Proves It With Pics

I like to roam the websites of other companies; searching for and gathering relevant information to point you to. Articles, How To, forums, etc., I find what I think will interest my readers and post it here and at our DeckExpert.com website.

One forum I thought was interesting is http://www.johnbridge.com/ a website/forum on tiling. I signed up, made a few posts and had some lively discussions with some of the members, and then wham, without any notice, I got banned...

seems that JB can't take criticism or have a discussion on waterproofing without their feelings getting hurt. On one series of discussions on waterproofing decks, several tile setters took issue with my statement that waterproofers should waterproof a deck, then tile setters should set tile on the deck.

Here's a post of mine at their site
Judging From the Numerous Artilces From Dave Gobis and Michael Byrne, I'd Beg To Diff
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ceramictec says any good tile setter know how to waterproof...I beg to differ.
Dave Gobis in a recent article (Sept/Oct 2009 issue of Tile Magazine, which I'm sure you all get...) predicted that "There's no end in sight to leaky decks."


he continues on saying further in the article..."Decks and patios are fraught with obstacles to a successful installation. ..I have yet to see a product failure, however it was alleged that there was a product failure on every job. So far all have been inappropriate product selection, and/or poor workmanship.


Manufacturer's have done an outstanding job of developing products to address waterproofing in particular. With the blurring of the traditional tile setter into the realm of floor cover-er, waterproofing has seen a disproportionate amount of failures. It is generally accepted and well known that a floor layer can get into big trouble in this specialized area without proper training..."


jeez, we better let Bart Bettigia, Dave Gobis and Michael Byrne know they are gonna be out of a job writing about tile failures and waterproofing issues soon then...


they must be writing articles on bad tile waterproofing and tile application jobs for the 3-4 guys who don't know how to waterproof and tile and if those 3 or 4 are reading this thread, well then they'll clue in too
or maybe it's just in California that the tile guys don't know how to waterproof???
 

Then I get a guy on the forum who says he as a tile setter can waterproof and posts pics to prove it...and so I studied his pictures. Here's one above-from his post I quote
" If I had to choose one specialty trade to install a waterproof tiled deck I would hire a 'good' tilesetter.
Like Brian said emphasis on good.
Can qualified tile setters waterproof a exterior deck properly? Flood test of deck over finished garage. The owners Mercedes stayed nice and dry. This was a repair of a an improperly installed deck that was leaking.
This is the secondary membrane on top of the mortar bed.
And I agree exterior decks are some of the most difficult and detailed jobs a tile setter will generally encounter. But shower pans typically get a lot more water on them than any exterior deck or roof. Unless you live out on the Hana side of Maui. (where it rains alot)
There are plenty of so called tile setters that don't know how to waterproof, they are called carpetlayers."

So lets go back and study his picture of the deck above...look closely and you'll notice a membrane run up the wall over the stucco. Notice the lack of a weep screed/materials break.
This tile setter may have "waterproofed" the deck, but he's screwed the owner over by not allowing the stucco to weep any water in the wall out...he's effectively trapped it. Not understanding the effect of wrapping a membrane up the wall is POOR WORKMANSHIP!
 
I say Tile setters set tile, waterproofers waterproof for tile...so keep that guy away from my house!
 
John Bridge invited me to send visitors to their site for free advice...the only advice I can give is be careful...most tile guys in my opinion don't know diddly about waterproofing. Click to Check out their website here... and tell them that The Deck Expert should be on their forum and not to be afraid!

Another Tiled Deck Gone to Hell-Tufflex Material Re-Emulsified/Leaks Into Garage

Last week I looked at another failed Slate covered deck in Atascadero, CA... this one has Tufflex underneath. Four years old, the installer went out of business and the owner is stuck with a big (11k) repair bill to remove it all, then will have to put down new plywood and waterproofing.

Tile decks, you can go cheap the first time, but when that bites you in the ass...you'll spend more second time around to fix it.

Pay Central Coast Waterproofing once to do it right. Call Bill at 805-545-8300 for a free tile waterproofing system estimate. Lic 890269.

Faultily Installed Heated Exterior Tile Deck Causes $67,000 in Damages, Insurance Co Denies Claim, Suit Goes to Court, Here's The Ruling

From LEAGLE.COM

After Safeco Insurance Company of America (Safeco) denied Connie Stevens Fisher's claim for water damage to her Wyoming home, Stevens sued for breach of insurance contract. The trial court granted Safeco's motion for summary judgment and entered judgment in its favor. We affirm.

In July 2004 Stevens submitted a $67,000 claim to Safeco for damage caused by a leak from the home's terrace, which serves as the roof for a room with an indoor pool and spa, into the room below it. Stevens contended the leak resulted from a failure of the home's hydronic system, used to heat the stone on the terrace to melt snow and ice. The claim included the cost to repair the hydronic system, replace the terrace stone and repair the damage to the interior sheetrock and wood. Following inspection by a structural engineer retained by Safeco and a claims adjuster, review of the blueprints for the home and discussion with the tile setter who had installed the terrace stone, in September 2004 Safeco denied the claim, finding coverage was excluded by the water damage, weather and construction defect exclusions based in part on the structural engineer's report the leak resulted from improper construction methods and inadequate slope for the terrace.

In a December 2004 letter counsel for Stevens objected to Safeco's denial of coverage, asserting the exclusions Safeco had relied on were not found in Stevens's policy. Safeco responded it had relied on the correct Quality Crest policy form and sent counsel a certified copy of it. (It appears counsel had mistakenly believed the Quality Plus policy form sent to Stevens in late 2004 for the policy period beginning November 15, 2004 was the operative policy; Stevens canceled that policy on February 16, 2005.) Following more communications from Stevens and additional investigation, Safeco confirmed its denial of coverage in May 2005.

 

READ THE WHOLE CASE BY CLICKING HERE

Tiled Deck Failure-Lawsuit Over 300K Worth Of H2O Damage to 4.5 Mil House

Fear Not Law blog has a great case on a tile job on decks that failed...read it here there's a lesson somewhere in that mess...

http://www.fearnotlaw.com/articles/a...952.html#_ftn2

Good Thread on Tile Deck/Mortar Bed At JLC Forums

Saw this on JLC's forums...anyone want to read more or chime in go to JLC and register to post at their forums... pestocat New Member

Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 16

Floating a Mortar Bed on a Balcony

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I will be floating a mortar bed on a balcony 4 ft. wide by 11 ft. long. There is nothing to confine the outside edges of the bed. How is this non confinement handled. Do I float to the edge and use a steel trowel to make a sharp cut just short of the edge and just make sure I have it compacted well. Maybe use my hand to confine the mortar at the edge. A little excess will fall off the edge. Is this the way it is done? After reading Michael Byrne's article "Tiling an Outdoor Countertop", it seems I could add temporary edging to the bacony facia that would be at the finish height of the mortar bed. Seems like a solution.

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Last edited by pestocat; 08-03-2010 at 05:25 PM.

Mer-Krete, A Division of Parex, Introduces New Website

Mer-Krete, the division of Parex that along with Mer-Ko, makes tile setting, mortar beds and waterproofing for tile decking and tile applications in showers/baths etc. has launched their new website at www.merkrete.com.

The new website brings us lots of updated information, better graphics, faster loading and lots of specs for tile and waterproofing applications!

The site looks great, check it out today! 

3 Million Dollar House in Avila Beach With Failed Tile Deck "Waterproofing"

Great View From Avila Beach roof deck

Rotted subfloor, metal lath visible in closeup view

WTF? No, you don't run irrigation lines under tile decks!

Heaved up tile in center of deck

Here's another shining example of a tile deck  over a waterproofing system done badly, this time on a 3 million dollar home in Avila Beach.

There's 1500+ square feet on the main level deck and roof deck. The decks were waterproofed with a metal lath, concrete and urethane with sand broadcast into it (sand gives thinset something to grab when installing the tiles). The manufacturer is unknown but several make a tile waterproofing system similar to the system here.

So what's wrong you ask? It would be easier to answer with what's right...NOTHING!
The tile & grout have cracks all over, indicating excessive movement in the sub-structure. The tile is heaved in several places, indicating moisture underneath. The tile is higher than the door thresholds, trapping water in the thresholds, allowing water out under the tile vis a vis the weep holes doors have built in them...

The deck/tile has no allowances for expansion/contraction that occurs in exterior conditions. No mortar bed to provide a firm base. The substrate it's built over is only 3/4" plywood, not the minimum 1" as recommended by TCNA. The joists are woefully undersized, at 16" on center and only 2" x 8", can't possibly provide the necessary stiffness a tile deck requires.

This deck is a total tear off and redo, sans tile. The deck is obviously not designed for tile, but some idiot went ahead anyway...

Estimated costs to repair and redo with a traffic coating-$70,000-$80,000...
and tile is not an option!


Central Coast Waterproofing, the deck experts, is a authorized installer of Mer-Kote tile deck waterproofing systems. For your next tile deck project, call the experts at 805-545-8300 or pay the price of failure!

Deck Expert Recommends You Read DURADEK President John Oglivie's White Paper on Waterproofing and Tile Decks-BEFORE YOU TILE, Not After.

One of our advertisers (full disclosure here) has just published a white paper on the waterproofing and tiling of decks over living space.

Entitled "COMMON SOURCES OF FAILURE OF TILE DECKS ON WOOD FRAME CONSTRUCTION" the article discusses the issues and problems that result when one cheaps out on properly preparing and waterproofing the deck, the importance of drainage planes and Duradeks recommendations. John Oglivie, president of Duradek, is the author.

Here's an excerpt from John's article. 

There are few outdoor surfaces as attractive and durable as tile or stone and they can be used outdoors even in very extreme climates providing there is a great deal of care put into the choices of materials and trades people. As so often happens, attempts to cut corners on costs or by taking shortcuts, even ones that seem to make sense, result in the most expensive installations. The common themes in this report are to follow the manufacturer’s recommendations to the letter and employ only experienced professionals for each part of the job. The chances of a successful, long lasting installation increase exponentially if you do.

 The most surprising thing we discovered was that that if you were willing to research the issue and look to the industry experts and follow the recommended “best practice” standards, the success rate would be dramatically increased. Simply knowing the questions to ask and who to ask is the first step to getting the right answers.
Some of the best advice given to us by a “long in the tooth” tile contractor was this: He tells his customers who are interested in having tile or stone outdoors (especially on a wood frame building) that if they don’t have a budget sufficient to do it properly they should not even consider it. Taking money-saving short cuts with an “assembly” that requires all the components to work together could prove to be extremely expensive in the long run.


Click here to read the rest of this article at Duradek.com
 read this article or you'll probably pay a heavy price to fix the failures that commonly occur...

RIP-Poor Flashing Job Dooms Tiled Deck in Arroyo Grande

This is a deck in Arroyo Grande. The only indication of any problems was the rusted flashings. Then Central Coast Waterproofing  started demoing the deck. The damage hidden behind the stucco was stunning!

It's just a lousy flashing and wrapping job that combined to deliver a knockout-the beams are so rotted, I don't know wht the deck was still standing...

Major repairs are required before I can install the waterproofing. Stay tuned...

HOUSE Of HORROR In Ventura; Never Mind "Nightmare on Elm Street", Try Dry-Rot on Rincon Beach Drive

I'm repairing some decks at a clients house in Ventura. The other day I stopped in to check on the crew and inspect the job.

Two doors down, a home that just sold ten days ago was being sawn apart...

so curiosity got the better of me and I walked over to see the carnage...

Weak stomach's beware!

So here's this beautiful home, all dry-rotted in the 2 decks...they had tile over a hot mop type waterproofing...which leaks like a sieve, and caused probably a 100k worth of damage.

The cans for the lights in the ceiling are rusted!. The ceiling on the second floor deck is out, blue sky, looking at me...oh what a mess.

We've specified a Mer-Ko ARC dual membrane tile waterproofing/reinforced underlayment
for this job through Central Coast Waterproofing. This system will provide the base for tile that is necessary to support the weight and the dual waterproofing provides a redundant system that will provide peace of mind.

Call Central Coast Waterproofing for a free quote on waterproofing your next tile deck at 805-801-2380.

Consultant Dave Gobis Predicts "there is no end in sight to leaky decks..."

This month's Tile magazine just hit my mailbox today. On the cover is a question "Is it Really Waterproof? pg 16".

So I go right to page 16 to read consultant Dave Gobis' article about waterproofing for tile showers, decks, tubs, and steam room applications.

I was delighted to read his statement " I have yet to see a product failure, however, it was alleged that there was a failing product on every job. So far all have been inappropriate material selection and/or poor workmanship." Yes, yes and yes...

Better yet is "Decks and patios are fraught with obstacles to a successful installation. Most typical failures occur due to unskilled or semi-skilled labor, use of inappropriate products, railing penetrations, failure to allow for thermal and moisture movement, lack of counter flashing and poor drainage provisions." Yes, yes, and yes... Any questions? You get what you pay for folks, go cheap, get cheap. Then you can pay a whole lot more to fix all the dry-rot and termite damage.

Thanks Dave for telling it like it is. I agree with Dave and his assement and in this economy, all it means to me is that our future incomes and work loads are assurred...

READ DAVE'S ARTICLE AT TILEMAGONLINE.COM BY CLICKING HERE

Great Tile Waterproofing Display by AVM Industries

I think this display for a tile deck system by AVM Industries is a great presentation and certainly presses other mfg to step up.
Bill leys

DURADEK ANNOUNCES NEW PRODUCT LAUNCH! New TILEDEK Waterproofing Membrane for Using Under Tile Applications

For Immediate release – New product Intro – February 17, 2009



******Duradek is very pleased to introduce TILEDEK******



‘Tiledek’ is an outdoor anti-fracture roofing membrane designed for outdoor tile decks and roofs. Virtually identical to Duradek Ultra, Tiledek is an approved roofing membrane with a fabric laminated to its topside. The tiles are then bonded securely to the fabric-covered membrane with thinset mortar.



‘Tiledek’ is produced by Duradek, the original waterproofing sheet vinyl that has been solving unique waterproofing problems throughout North America for over 35 years. With the same roofing approvals, the same proven installation techniques, and the same network of professional and trained applicators, ‘Tiledek’ is about to revolutionize the decking and flat roof industry.



Please see www.duradek.com for more details or call 1-866-591-5594

Thanks very much


Jennifer Ogilvie
Marketing Manager
Duradek Ltd.
Toll Free: 866-591-5594 ext.240

ü Please consider the environment before printing this email.

One Of My Competitors is Welcome to Do This Job...

One of my biggest frustrations in the field of waterproofing is the lack or respect and appreciation of my trade...

Today I went to look at a job that I received a lead on yesterday; a nice job that needs waterproofing for tiling over. It was way out in the back country of SLO County, off Huer Huero Rd in Creston. Big ranch style house, certainly a million dollar home.

The contractor, who shall remain nameless to protect the guilty, when he was on the phone with me became a little belligerent when he asked me what system I would use... He said "I know what Deck Tech (a local competitor in Grover Beach) does for tile, what do you do?"

I simply told him that until I looked at it, I wouldn't know, nor make a decision on until I got there. So off I went this morning, out Hwy 58 through Santa Margarita out to Creston. I arrived at the house to find what you see in the pictures...

The contractor told me that they were putting on a 1 1/2" mortar bed over my waterproofing to put the tile onto. I said can I raise a couple questions? Sure, he said, go ahead...

Well said I, there's a few issues that need to be addressed..."I don't believe the substrate and framing are suitable for tiling over...it's 2" x 8" construction, it's 3/4" OSB over that, and the joists are only 16" on center. Plus your OSB is not an approved substrate for waterproofing over, it's in upside down, and it's not gapped. Plus there's no blocking at the seams . My opinion is that you need 2" x10" framing, 10" on center, and you need to have at least another 5/8" sheet of plywood on top. I think they'll be deflection, which will cause the tile to crack, the waterproofing to fail, and we both get sued..."

That's when the contractor told me that he didn't need my services...whew! Like I was going to take this job as it was and accept the risk of this job failing...

So off I went, thankful I am smart enough to walk away from idiot contractors who think they're smarter than me. There are still 4 more companies in the phone book for him to call...one of them I'm sure will be hungry enough for work to allow them to ignore the signs of trouble.

TCNA - TCA Publications

If you waterproof decks for tile applications, you'd better have this in your library! Buy it today from Tile Council of America! No, sorry, we don't get any referral fees or commissions. We bought this book and simply suggest you do to!

TCNA - TCA Publications: "The 2007 version of the TCA Handbook for Ceramic Tile Installation provides specification writers, architects, contractors and installers industry-consensus detailed drawings and installation specification guidelines for 101 installation methods. The specification guidelines for each method include recommended uses, limitations, requirements, materials, preparation by other trades, movement joints and installation specifications. It references American National Standards Institute (ANSI) standards and American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) test methods. The 2007 Handbook features: + More than 300 updates + Significant changes in deflection language + All changes are marked with an '07' graphic + Includes Floor Covering Cost Comparison"